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Post by Pru Freda on Mar 10, 2014 11:31:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 11:32:58 GMT -5
I use Rivet Your Readers with Deep POV by Jill Nelson all the time. A lot of times I'll read a chapter, then just practice on something I've written but haven't edited yet.
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Post by Suzy on Mar 10, 2014 12:21:07 GMT -5
Excellent link, Lynda. I'll be reading it with great interest. Very helpful. Thanks for posting it. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 10, 2014 14:58:27 GMT -5
That's really interesting, lynda -- thanks! That's the kind of craft knowledge I feel I don't have, not having studied creative writing (either in school or on my own).
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Post by Daniel on Mar 10, 2014 16:31:17 GMT -5
Jordan McCollum wrote an interesting series of articles on deep point of view. At one point, she offered a PDF download of the series, but I can't find it on her site. I can also vouch for Rivet Your Readers with Deep POV. It's a tiny book, but it has good examples. Deep POV is a fascinating concept. It's amazing how much difference it can make in your writing. One of the best tips I recall was to ditch all sensory *reference* words such as heard, saw, felt, and smelled. Those words all add distance to the reader experience, even in first person. One of my revision passes now includes a global search for those words. For example, here's a snippet from Lynda's passage: Nowhere in there did she say the character heard or felt anything. Instead, we get to experience the sensory information with the character. Bravo, Lynda. I wish I could do that so well. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 10, 2014 18:03:22 GMT -5
Huh. I'm really going to keep an eye out for this stuff when I get to editing Solatium. Thanks, guys!
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Post by whdean on Mar 11, 2014 10:25:20 GMT -5
Those interested in this might also want to look up “close third person.” You’ll dig up much more attached to that expression (I suspect) than you will to “deep POV.” At least, I’ve read a lot about close third person, and I’ve never heard it called “deep POV.”
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 10:56:23 GMT -5
Those interested in this might also want to look up “close third person.” You’ll dig up much more attached to that expression (I suspect) than you will to “deep POV.” At least, I’ve read a lot about close third person, and I’ve never heard it called “deep POV.” Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. |
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Post by whdean on Mar 11, 2014 11:12:55 GMT -5
Those interested in this might also want to look up “close third person.” You’ll dig up much more attached to that expression (I suspect) than you will to “deep POV.” At least, I’ve read a lot about close third person, and I’ve never heard it called “deep POV.” Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. Naw, same thing. Writing has more names for the same thing than any other discipline, except maybe philosophy. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 11:17:49 GMT -5
Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. Naw, same thing. Writing has more names for the same thing than any other discipline, except maybe philosophy. Heh, heh, heh ...  |
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Post by vrabinec on Mar 11, 2014 11:29:35 GMT -5
Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. Writing has more names for the same thing than any other discipline, except maybe philosophy. Or anatomy: 1.Astries Bazookas 2.Bazooms 3.Beacons 4.Beanbags 5.Bebops 6.Betty Boops 7.Big Boppers 8.Bikini Stuffers 9.Billibongs 10.Blinkers 11.Bombers 12.Bombshells 13.Bon Bons 14.Bongos 15.Bonkers 16.Boobers 17.Boobies 18.Boobs 19.Boops 20.Bops 21.Bosom 22.Boulders 23.Bouncers 24.Bra Buddies 25.Bra Stuffers 26.Breasts 27.Bronskis 28.Bubbas 29.Bubbies 30.Buds 31.Bulbs 32.Bulges 33.Bullets 34.Bumpers 35.Bumps 36.Bust 37.Busters 38.Busties 39.Butterballs 40.Buttons 41.Caboodles 42.Cams 43.Cannon Balls 44.Cantaloupes 45.Carumbas 46.Cha-chas 47.Charlies 48.Chihuahuas 49.Chimichongas 50.Chiquitas 51.Coconuts 52.Congas 53.Corkers 54.Cream Pies 55.Cuhuangas 56.Cupcakes 57.Dingers 58.Dinghies 59.Dingos 60.Dirigibles 61.Doorknobs 62.Doozies 63.Double-Whammies 64.Dueling Banjos 65.Dumplings 66.Dunes 67.Ear Muffs 68.Eclairs 69.Eggplants 70.Enchiladas 71.Flapjacks 72.Flappers 73.Flesh Bulbs 74.Fog Lights 75.Fried Eggs 76.Fun Bags 77.Gagas 78.Garbos 79.Gazingas 80.Gazongas 81.Glands 82.Globes 83.Globlets 84.Gob Stoppers 85.Gongas 86.Goombas 87.Grapefruits 88.Grillwork 89.Guavas 90.Gum Drops 91.Hand Warmers 92.Handsets 93.Head Lamps 94.Headers 95.Headlights 96.Headphones 97.Headsets 98.Hefties 99.Heifers 100.Hemispheres 101.Hills 102.Hindenburgs 103.Honeydews 104.Honkers 105.Hood-Ornaments 106.Hoohas 107.Hooters 108.Hot Cakes 109.Hottentots 110.Howitzers 111.Hubcaps 112.Huffies 113.Humdingers 114.Hush Puppies 115.ICBMS 116.Jawbreakers 117.Jemimas 118.Jibs 119.Jobbers 120.Jugs 121.Jukes 122.Jumbos 123.Kabukis 124.Kalamazoos 125.Kazongas 126.Kazoos 127.Knobbers 128.Knockers 129.Kongas 130.Kumquats 131.Lactoids 132.Lip Fodder 133.LLamas 134.Loaves 135.LobLollies 136.Love Mellons 137.Love Muffins 138.LuLus 139.Macaroons 140.Mammaries 141.Mammies 142.Mams 143.Mangos 144.Marangos 145.Maraschinos 146.Marimbas 147.Mau Maus 148.Mausers 149.Meat Loaves 150.Meatballs 151.Melons 152.Milk Cans 153.Milk Fountains 154.Milk Shakes 155.Mmbos 156.Molehills 157.Mommas 158.Mondos 159.Montain Peaks 160.Montezumas 161.Moo Moos 162.Mother Lodes 163.Mounds 164.Muchachas 165.Muffins 166.Mulligans 167.Mushmellons 168.Nancies 169.Nectarines 170.Niblets 171.Nibs 172.Nippers 173.Nippies 174.Nippleoons 175.Nippleos 176.Nips 177.Nodes 178.Nodules 179.Noogies 180.Nose Cones 181.Oboes 182.Oompas 183.Orbs Apples 184.Ottomans Balboas 185.Padding Balloons 186.Pagodas Bangers 187.Pair Bangles 188.Palookas Bassoons 189.Peaches 190.Peaks 191.Pears 192.Pects 193.Peepers 194.Pillows 195.Pips 196.Plums 197.Pointer-Sisters 198.Points 199.Pokers 200.Polygons 201.Pompoms 202.Pontoons 203.Potatoes 204.PT Boats 205.Pumpkins 206.Rangoons 207.Rib Cushions 208.Sandbags 209.Satellites 210.Scones 211.Scoops 212.Set 213.Shakers 214.Shebas 215.Shermans 216.Shimmies 217.Silos 218.Skin Sacks 219.Skooners 220.Smoothies 221.Snuggle Pups 222.Spark Plugs 223.Specials 224.Spheres 225.Spongecakes 226.Spuds 227.Stacks 228.Stuffing Casabas 229.Sugar Plums 230.Sweater Meat 231.Sweater Puffs 232.Sweet Rolls 233.Tahitis 234.Tamales 235.Tartugas 236.Tatas 237.Tattlers 238.Teats 239.Tetons 240.Thangs 241.Thingumajigs 242.Tidbits 243.Titbits 244.Tits 245.Titters Domes 246.Titties Doodads 247.Tom-Toms 248.Tomatoes 249.Torpedoes 250.Tortillas 251.Totos Dugs 252.Twangers 253.Tweakers 254.Tweeters 255.Twin Peaks 256.Twofers 257.Tympanies 258.U-Boats 259.Umlauts 260.Wahwahs 261.Zeppelins 262.Zingers |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 11:52:07 GMT -5
I spent part of last weekend sitting around with grad school friends coming up with synonyms for (among other things) breasts, and we didn't get nearrly that many. Most of them look made-up.  |
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Post by vrabinec on Mar 11, 2014 12:04:48 GMT -5
I confess, I've only used 21 of those names myself. The list was compiled by college students, so maybe they have a bunch of inside joke names there.
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 12:11:16 GMT -5
Those interested in this might also want to look up “close third person.” You’ll dig up much more attached to that expression (I suspect) than you will to “deep POV.” At least, I’ve read a lot about close third person, and I’ve never heard it called “deep POV.” Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. I believe there is a subtle difference. Third person POV is "close" when it sticks to the viewpoint of a single character at a time. Deep POV is more a matter of style. The goal is to eliminate everything that distances the reader from the character's perceptions. I would argue that close third person is at its best when it is done with deep POV, but some writers choose not to write it that way intentionally (e.g. wanting some distance). |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 12:22:38 GMT -5
Do you think they're exactly the same thing, or is there some subtle difference? "Close third" is a more familiar term to me. I believe there is a subtle difference. Third person POV is "close" when it sticks to the viewpoint of a single character at a time. Deep POV is more a matter of style. The goal is to eliminate everything that distances the reader from the character's perceptions. I would argue that close third person is at its best when it is done with deep POV, but some writers choose not to write it that way intentionally (e.g. wanting some distance). Hmmm ... interesting. That makes sense. Do WHDean and DRMarvello need to enter the Thunderdome to settle this question?  |
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 12:36:22 GMT -5
I believe there is a subtle difference. Third person POV is "close" when it sticks to the viewpoint of a single character at a time. Deep POV is more a matter of style. The goal is to eliminate everything that distances the reader from the character's perceptions. I would argue that close third person is at its best when it is done with deep POV, but some writers choose not to write it that way intentionally (e.g. wanting some distance). Hmmm ... interesting. That makes sense. Do WHDean and DRMarvello need to enter the Thunderdome to settle this question? No thanks. I don't need to convince anyone else I'm right about this. I'm just offering my opinion. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 12:47:22 GMT -5
Hmmm ... interesting. That makes sense. Do WHDean and DRMarvello need to enter the Thunderdome to settle this question? No thanks. I don't need to convince anyone else I'm right about this. I'm just offering my opinion. Darn. Was getting out my Tina Turner wig and chain-mail dress ...  |
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Post by whdean on Mar 11, 2014 13:32:51 GMT -5
1. Well, I agree with Marvello that you can talk about them in different ways if you talk about them from different standpoints. Deep POV can be treated as a craft approach (how you do it) and close third person a critic’s approach (how it reads). But we philosophical types call this a distinction without a difference, because you can’t tell the difference between a deep-POV book and a close-third-person book by reading them. So what goes for one goes for the other.
2. A separate issue is that close third person won’t work in cases where you need to (or it’s desirable to) sneak in bits of another’s thoughts or feelings or where you have two or more people’s internal lives exposed. A lover’s exchange in romance, for example. In fact, I suspect that most complaints about “head hopping” are actually cases of people writing in close third person when they should be using objective or subjective third person. After all, without “thought tags” you can’t tell who’s thinking what.
3. Some advice that floats around KB—I think it comes from that self-editing fiction book—says you should remove “thought words” and so forth. That too is just close third person by another name—or, in this case again, close third person described as a technique.
4. None of this is especially surprising: people tend to stumble on the same things and then talk about them in different ways. And some of the different ways reflect the doer’s perspective and some the observer’s.
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Deep POV
Mar 11, 2014 13:57:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by vrabinec on Mar 11, 2014 13:57:04 GMT -5
Getting the term right would be critical if I wanted to impress other authors with my writing knowledge. As it is, I can go at 3rd one of two ways. Keep it somewhat distant in a POV that's borderline omni, or dig in deep and show every nuance (at least, the interesting nuances). I figure it's one or the other. I'm not sure degrees matter much once you step over the thteshold and strat showing the subjective mind of the POV character. What I suspect is, there are people out there who belive that showing those subjective thoughts and infusing the narrative with the POV character's personality can be taken to an extreme that qualifies it for a special title called "deep". That's fine as some sort of a distinction, but that "deep" POV they refer to as a subset of one of the original "either or" categorizations is just a cutesy way to paint a style. Like purple prose is still prose, 3rd deep is still....
Am I full of shit? I mean, specifically about this?
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Post by Suzy on Mar 11, 2014 14:00:29 GMT -5
Getting the term right would be critical if I wanted to impress other authors with my writing knowledge. As it is, I can go at 3rd one of two ways. Keep it somewhat distant in a POV that's borderline omni, or dig in deep and show every nuance (at least, the interesting nuances). I figure it's one or the other. I'm not sure degrees matter much once you step over the thteshold and strat showing the subjective mind of the POV character. What I suspect is, there are people out there who belive that showing those subjective thoughts and infusing the narrative with the POV character's personality can be taken to an extreme that qualifies it for a special title called "deep". That's fine as some sort of a distinction, but that "deep" POV they refer to as a subset of one of the original "either or" categorizations is just a cutesy way to paint a style. Like purple prose is still prose, 3rd deep is still.... Am I full of shit? I mean, specifically about this? No, you're not! Not even about this. I thought this kind of thing worked if you removed 'filters', such as 'she thought, she felt'. |
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