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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2014 14:08:46 GMT -5
I disagree that deep POV should be used all the time, though Nelson sure seemed to insist that in her books. I think it really helps in first person, though you've probably already gotten rid of the "he thought" or "she knows". In third person, I like to pull in and out, summarizing at points where I want to distance the reader, then drawing them back in. I especially like to do so in the beginning of a new scene after a very intense scene, to sort of allow the reader to take a breath.
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 14:48:38 GMT -5
I think I like the distinction Daniel's drawing. It seems to fit the two different terms. "Close third" = the narrative voice is outside the character but has access to their deepest thoughts, desires, etc., and shares them with the reader. "Deep" = the narrative consciousness sinks so far into the POV character's mind that there's no filter there. IRL, when you think something, you don't add a tag like "I think" or "I thought" on the end, so when you do deep POV, you drop tags like that. Going deep means a more "inside," immediate-seeming experience of the POV character's inner life. "Deep" could work with either a first-person or a third-person narrator. In the latter case, you might end up with something like Woolfian free indirect discourse.
That's my layperson's stab at it.
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 15:45:57 GMT -5
Another difference between deep POV and close third is that deep POV can be applied to first person (as Lynda did.)
I agree that "deep" is a subjective term. I think the term was originally coined by practitioners who were trying to explain the benefits of bringing the reader closer to the character's experience. That means different things to all of us. I see it as a nuance of "show don't tell." For example, one could argue that saying the character heard or felt something is telling as opposed to showing the character experiencing those things. For the reader, it's the difference between "watching" the character go through a scene and "experiencing" the scene as that character.
I personally do notice deep POV now when I'm reading. I noticed it immediately in Lynda's passage. I take that as a good sign that I'm internalizing the concept. I hope it will apply to my own writing more reliably in time.
I'm not suggesting that "write deep POV" should be yet another writing rule. I'm not a big fan of writing rules. I just love how the technique adds immediacy and intensity.
ETA: I wrote this before I realized there were "page 2" comments. I think I just repeated half of what Becca said.
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 15:54:34 GMT -5
I disagree that deep POV should be used all the time, though Nelson sure seemed to insist that in her books. I think it really helps in first person, though you've probably already gotten rid of the "he thought" or "she knows". In third person, I like to pull in and out, summarizing at points where I want to distance the reader, then drawing them back in. I especially like to do so in the beginning of a new scene after a very intense scene, to sort of allow the reader to take a breath. Jordan McCollum is a little less stringent about it. One of her posts was about when not to use deep POV. I think deep POV is like any writing tool: use it when it is appropriate. My books have a mix of first person and close third. I like to make the first person scenes as deep as I can, but I add distance for the third person scenes with the antagonist. Those scenes are still in close third, but they don't use as many deep POV techniques. |
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Post by shawninmon on Mar 11, 2014 18:03:53 GMT -5
Hey! I've just been figuring this stuff out in my WIP. Glad to be catching up!
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 18:09:29 GMT -5
I love the craft threads, here.
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 18:16:24 GMT -5
I love the craft threads, here. Me too. We manage to share our experiences and opinions (even when they differ) without the thread going up in flames like other places. The difference seems to be respectful disagreement. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 18:29:48 GMT -5
ETA: I wrote this before I realized there were "page 2" comments. I think I just repeated half of what Becca said. Makes sense, since I was riffing off what you said earlier!  |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 18:31:45 GMT -5
I love the craft threads, here. Me too. We manage to share our experiences and opinions (even when they differ) without the thread going up in flames like other places. The difference seems to be respectful disagreement. Yeah, it rocks.  I'd still like to break out the Thunderdome, though. Just once. Maybe we could some cantankerous KBers and stick them in there.  |
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Post by whdean on Mar 11, 2014 18:37:59 GMT -5
My point about deep POV and close third person is that you can underline (I mean literally with a pen) the differences between, say, first and third person in two books, and you can underline the differences between third person and close third person. But you can’t underline the differences between close third and deep POV because, as far as I can see, there aren’t any. Now, the practical upshot was (and still is) simple: anyone interested in deep POV should also look at close third person.
As for the idea that there’s something called deep first person, well, I’m a little mystified as to what it could be when the difference between third and close third is that the narrator (author) and the protagonist merge—-merge just like they do in first person. So how do you merge more than being one and the same voice, as narrator and author are in first person?
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 19:05:34 GMT -5
As for the idea that there’s something called deep first person, well, I’m a little mystified as to what it could be when the difference between third and close third is that the narrator (author) and the protagonist merge—-merge just like they do in first person. So how do you merge more than being one and the same voice, as narrator and author are in first person? I may be misinterpreting, but it sounds like you are saying that first person is deep POV by definition. Maybe what we need is a "before and after" example of a first person passage with and without deep POV. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 19:12:50 GMT -5
My point about deep POV and close third person is that you can underline (I mean literally with a pen) the differences between, say, first and third person in two books, and you can underline the differences between third person and close third person. But you can’t underline the differences between close third and deep POV because, as far as I can see, there aren’t any. Now, the practical upshot was (and still is) simple: anyone interested in deep POV should also look at close third person. As for the idea that there’s something called deep first person, well, I’m a little mystified as to what it could be when the difference between third and close third is that the narrator (author) and the protagonist merge—-merge just like they do in first person. So how do you merge more than being one and the same voice, as narrator and author are in first person? According to the difference Daniel was describing ... "Regular" first person: "Deep" first person: Is that the kind of difference you have in mind, D? |
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Post by Daniel on Mar 11, 2014 19:16:39 GMT -5
That works. It's an even more subtle example than I had in mind. Lynda's passage would make a great before and after, but in that case, she'd have to write the before. |
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Post by vrabinec on Mar 11, 2014 20:50:51 GMT -5
My point about deep POV and close third person is that you can underline (I mean literally with a pen) the differences between, say, first and third person in two books, and you can underline the differences between third person and close third person. But you can’t underline the differences between close third and deep POV because, as far as I can see, there aren’t any. Now, the practical upshot was (and still is) simple: anyone interested in deep POV should also look at close third person. As for the idea that there’s something called deep first person, well, I’m a little mystified as to what it could be when the difference between third and close third is that the narrator (author) and the protagonist merge—-merge just like they do in first person. So how do you merge more than being one and the same voice, as narrator and author are in first person? According to the difference Daniel was describing ... "Regular" first person: "Deep" first person: Is that the kind of difference you have in mind, D? |
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Post by vrabinec on Mar 11, 2014 20:54:39 GMT -5
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Post by Becca Mills on Mar 11, 2014 23:21:10 GMT -5
Hmmm ... I'm not sure how to pull out further from the "deep" version, then. What would a more average-distance first-person look like? |
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Post by Pru Freda on Mar 12, 2014 0:17:22 GMT -5
Labels are all well and good, as long as we know what they mean. When I see a jar labelled coffee I know what to expect but, like Becca, I've never taken a creative writing course, so throwing around terms like objective or subjective third, is more than my tired old brain can handle.
Like I said at the start of this thread, when Daniel mentioned deep POV, I had to Google it to be sure what it meant. What I found in the blog post I linked to, was a short and clear explanation of the meaning, shorn of gobbledegook, that I could easily understand and use to better my writing.
Now that I know what it is (irrespective of what you call it), I can see its importance - and its usefulness.
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Post by Suzy on Mar 12, 2014 4:01:00 GMT -5
Like Lynda, I haven't been to any writing classes. I know what you mean by deep POV, though. To me it's simply trying not to use filters like thought, felt,smelled, tasted, etc.
Here is something I wrote this morning, which I hope a kind of deep POV:
Rita picked up the remote and switched on the TV. “The news is just about to start.”
They fell silent while they listened to the headlines. The kidnapping in Syria was the first item. Rita’s breath caught in her throat and she dropped the remote as a fuzzy video picture came on the screen. She stared at the gaunt, unshaven face. “Josh,” she whispered.
Josh held a copy of The Times with the date clearly visible with trembling hands. His hollow eyes were expressionless as he spoke. “Please give my captors the money they want. If you don’t, my friend and I will die.” The video ended abruptly.
“No…” Rita said in a bare whisper. “Oh, please…” Dizzy and cold, she turned to Fran. “What are they going to do to him?”
Fran took Rita’s hand. “You’re freezing.” She grabbed Rita’s cardigan and draped it over her shoulders. “I don’t know what’s going to happen now. Hopefully, they will wait for a response. I don’t think they will kill the journalists. Far too valuable as a negotiating tool. I’m sure it will be a while until anything at all happens.”
Rita blinked away tears. “You think so?”
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Post by scdaffron on Mar 12, 2014 8:15:32 GMT -5
I haven't read about this in quite a while, but I'm going to get back into it when I do the revisions for my WIP. My recollection is that deep POV includes more internal monologue than this: Original: They fell silent while they listened to the headlines. The kidnapping in Syria was the first item. Rita’s breath caught in her throat and she dropped the remote as a fuzzy video picture came on the screen. She stared at the gaunt, unshaven face. “Josh,” she whispered.Revised with deep POV (or what I think it is anyway): They fell silent. The headlines droned on monotonously. Were they ever going to talk about Josh? But then there it was. The kidnapping in Syria. This was it. Rita’s breath caught in her throat and she dropped the remote. The video picture was fuzzy, but it was Josh's face. He was so gaunt and unshaven. Haggard. What had he been through? “Josh,” she whispered.It's early and I'm sort of asleep, so pretend the writing is better But that was my recollection of deep POV. You are in the head of the protagonist, seeing, feeling and experiencing her POV. |
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Post by Suzy on Mar 12, 2014 8:21:39 GMT -5
That's great, Susan. Much deeper. But it needs perhaps a little more work.
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