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Post by Pru Freda on Jun 3, 2015 13:21:52 GMT -5
Do you use them? What for? And where do you find them?
I really feel that the WIP, Long Drive to Death, would benefit from a couple of alpha readers. I have my usual beta readers lined up, but I usually present them with a story that has already had all the kinks and inconsistencies ironed out of it.
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Post by Daniel on Jun 3, 2015 14:02:46 GMT -5
I rely on my alpha reader to find substantive issues that I would be embarrassed to put in front of my beta readers. I usually give her my first draft, unless I know the story has kinks I need to iron out. For example, I know the beginning of Geomancer's Bargain has to be reworked, so I'll do that before handing it to her. I want her to identify the problems I don't already know about without being distracted by the ones I do know about.
Where did I find her? At a little pizza parlor in San Diego in 1988, about four years before I married her.
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Post by Becca Mills on Jun 3, 2015 14:12:54 GMT -5
I also use family as alpha readers. Though I just lost one of them -- my mother-in-law, who passed away.
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Post by scdaffron on Jun 3, 2015 15:46:22 GMT -5
I rely on my alpha reader to find substantive issues that I would be embarrassed to put in front of my beta readers. I usually give her my first draft, unless I know the story has kinks I need to iron out. For example, I know the beginning of Geomancer's Bargain has to be reworked, so I'll do that before handing it to her. I want her to identify the problems I don't already know about without being distracted by the ones I do know about. Where did I find her? At a little pizza parlor in San Diego in 1988, about four years before I married her. ^^ Me too. My alpha reader is reading book 7 even now and hopefully finding those things that are too mortifying to be seen by beta readers  |
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Post by vrabinec on Jun 3, 2015 20:11:33 GMT -5
I also use family as alpha readers. Though I just lost one of them -- my mother-in-law, who passed away. Sorry to hear it. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Jun 3, 2015 22:03:08 GMT -5
I also use family as alpha readers. Though I just lost one of them -- my mother-in-law, who passed away. Sorry to hear it. Thanks, Fred. She was a wonderful person.  |
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Post by Pru Freda on Jun 3, 2015 23:23:02 GMT -5
Thanks, everybody.
Daniel, that's a lovely story - Becca, that's a sad one. My sympathies for your loss.
The problem with using my nearest and dearest, is the arguments it causes. Outside of my writing, he is not a reader of the genre, he is also far too nit-picky (I don't, at this stage, want to know about poor syntax or grammar) and takes far too long . Mind you, that last is true of quite a lot of things these days. *Sigh*
After the last book I swore I wouldn't ask him again, but I don't appear to have an alternative...
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Post by lindymoone on Jun 4, 2015 3:12:00 GMT -5
My readers are betas, but they are writer friends that I trust and who do it for free. I reciprocate. Never had alphas, but my betas will definitely let me have it if some big-picture items aren't working for them.
Some people posting chapters or stories on Critique Circle are really asking for alpha reads, and spell that out: "Please don't waste your time on grammar or spelling errors -- I'll get to that later; I'm looking for plot and character inconsistencies, if the story works for you and the ending is 'satisfying', etc."
Of course, to participate there you have to be willing (and able) to donate your time to help other writers. Not all of us have that time, unfortunately.
Can't you ask your betas to go through the manuscript as alphas?
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Post by Suzy on Jun 4, 2015 3:17:41 GMT -5
I also use family as alpha readers. Though I just lost one of them -- my mother-in-law, who passed away. That's so sad, Becca. I don't use alpha readers. I prefer to mess around with the first draft all on my own. |
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Post by Miss Terri Novelle on Jun 4, 2015 7:32:17 GMT -5
I don't use my husband as an alpha since I love him and killing him would be bad for our marriage. |
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Post by ameliasmith on Jun 4, 2015 8:14:38 GMT -5
The problem with using my nearest and dearest, is the arguments it causes. Outside of my writing, he is not a reader of the genre, he is also far too nit-picky (I don't, at this stage, want to know about poor syntax or grammar) and takes far too long . Mind you, that last is true of quite a lot of things these days. *Sigh* After the last book I swore I wouldn't ask him again, but I don't appear to have an alternative... I've discussed writing some with my husband, and he's not nit-picky about grammar, but he is hyper-critical on storytelling issues and has completely different tastes to me (though technically we're both somewhere in the speculative fiction realm). I also use family as alpha readers. Though I just lost one of them -- my mother-in-law, who passed away. I'm sorry to hear that, Becca. At the moment what I use is a system of two rounds of beta readers, though it sounds like round 1 refers to what some here would call alpha readers. I write and do a revision (or three or four with this interminable project), then send it out to the first batch, who identify story issues etc. The second round is more about typo-hunting. |
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Post by vrabinec on Jun 4, 2015 10:21:11 GMT -5
I've discussed writing some with my husband, and he's not nit-picky about grammar, but he is hyper-critical on storytelling issues and has completely different tastes to me (though technically we're both somewhere in the speculative fiction realm). About 25 years ago, when we were still young, I tried to get the wife to read some of the stuff I like. All in one day, she started Dune, The Stand, Foundation Trilogy, LOTR, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and at each one she said, "You like this stuff? Ew." And I knew I'd never talk books in my favorite genre with her. It was a sad day. But there is a slight overlap in our tastes in true crime. She likes stuff like In Cold Blood. It would be cool to have a built-in reader, but it's better to have someone read it who likes the genre, than to have her read it, no matter how helpful she might try to be. |
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Post by Pru Freda on Jun 4, 2015 10:37:05 GMT -5
Very true, Fred. Very true.
I can't say my other half reads whodunits as a general rule. I'm trying to educate him, but...
In the past I have tended to use betas for the task of plot development, but I feel I need more eyes on my work before I put it out there. Maybe I should just have more confidence.
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Post by Daniel on Jun 4, 2015 12:22:44 GMT -5
At the moment what I use is a system of two rounds of beta readers, though it sounds like round 1 refers to what some here would call alpha readers. I write and do a revision (or three or four with this interminable project), then send it out to the first batch, who identify story issues etc. The second round is more about typo-hunting. I agree with your take on it. My beta readers critique at the story level too, so for me, alpha is really a first beta pass that lets me get a little extra out of the second beta pass. I see alpha as Critique(1) and beta as Critique(2). I use a line editor for grammar and typo-hunting. On books where beta feedback has resulted in substantive changes, I've wished I could have a third critique pass. Otherwise, how do you know if your changes addressed the problems properly or maybe created new ones? I figure I have to draw the line somewhere, or the book will never get done. As for genre compatibility, several of my critique partners have not been fantasy readers. My wife rarely reads fantasy and avoids it as a general rule. She's still fully capable of identifying character and plot inconsistencies in my work. I don't believe it's necessary to like a story in order to critique it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 15:04:48 GMT -5
I hadn't even heard of alpha readers until recently and that was in a group on Facebook that exploded with chaos as people debated what expectations there were for what kind of reader.
At the moment I have neither alpha nor beta. There are three people who said they would beta but months have passed and none have bothered to take the time to read anything I send. On rare occasions when I get a bit of writer's block and try to shake it loose with fanfiction I'll be able to find someone to offer feedback there. Most of them don't want to do that a second time because I tend to "break their feels". To get them to read anything I have to swear I don't torture or kill anyone but characters they already hate (and one girl won't even listen there after something I pulled in one story...)
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Post by Miss Terri Novelle on Jun 4, 2015 15:08:50 GMT -5
Pru Freda, ship it off to my email and I will give it a read. Can't promise I'll be worth much as an alpha but I'll give it my best shot.
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Post by Daniel on Jun 4, 2015 15:35:25 GMT -5
I hadn't even heard of alpha readers until recently and that was in a group on Facebook that exploded with chaos as people debated what expectations there were for what kind of reader. Yikes. It's hard to imagine getting all twisted up about a bunch of made-up terms that have no consistent definition in the publishing industry. For the sake of no argument, I'd be willing to accept Wikipedia's definition, which groups alpha readers, beta readers, and critique partners under one umbrella: According to the above definition (and reading between the lines a bit), the only difference between an alpha reader and a beta reader is that alpha readers get first shot. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Jun 4, 2015 18:57:22 GMT -5
Thank you for the sympathy, everyone. Yeah, neither my spouse nor my late mother-in-law are/were fantasy readers. They still caught some stuff, though. My husband is particularly good at just being a sounding board while I talk through ideas after he's read it. I'd be very good to have an alpha reader who was versed in the genre, though. I ask beta-readers to ignore sentence-level stuff (unless there's lack of clarity). That's just not the area where I really need help. Storytelling ... that's the weak area. |
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Post by Daniel on Jun 4, 2015 19:34:25 GMT -5
I'd be very good to have an alpha reader who was versed in the genre, though. I ask beta-readers to ignore sentence-level stuff (unless there's lack of clarity). That's just not the area where I really need help. Storytelling ... that's the weak area. You must have a process that works because what you've published doesn't have storytelling problems that I've noticed. I'd be happy to continue beta reading your future work, but if you'd like to bump me to alpha reader and ask me to take a harder look at story structure and other craft issues, we can try that instead. As always, you can disagree with my suggestions and it won't hurt my feelings, and you can demote me back to beta without offending me. I normally wouldn't feel comfortable offering to do this, but I've read your work, I like your work, and I think we have a good enough rapport to make it feasible. I suspect I'd learn a lot from the process as well. You've already seen some of my work and received my critique, so you can also say, "No thanks," if you have someone more suitable in mind. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Jun 5, 2015 0:01:01 GMT -5
I'd be very good to have an alpha reader who was versed in the genre, though. I ask beta-readers to ignore sentence-level stuff (unless there's lack of clarity). That's just not the area where I really need help. Storytelling ... that's the weak area. You must have a process that works because what you've published doesn't have storytelling problems that I've noticed. I'd be happy to continue beta reading your future work, but if you'd like to bump me to alpha reader and ask me to take a harder look at story structure and other craft issues, we can try that instead. As always, you can disagree with my suggestions and it won't hurt my feelings, and you can demote me back to beta without offending me. I normally wouldn't feel comfortable offering to do this, but I've read your work, I like your work, and I think we have a good enough rapport to make it feasible. I suspect I'd learn a lot from the process as well. You've already seen some of my work and received my critique, so you can also say, "No thanks," if you have someone more suitable in mind. WOOMPH!!! That's that sound of me *jumping* on that offer ... thank you so much, Daniel! Don't worry, I take rigorous criticism without a twitch. Nothing anyone ever says to me about my creative writing will be as bad as my dissertation defense. Lordy.  As a beta-reader, you did give me important feedback on Solatium's structure. Remember how you didn't like the ending? LeeBee felt the same way. The resulting changes I made introduced more of an arc to Beth's development. That's the kind of storytelling problem I have -- I think episodically instead of in large, purposeful, cross-story movements/developments. The result is stasis. |
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