Editorial feedback and process

[ameliasmith]

I'm working on what will be my 4th published book and I'm not happy with my editorial process. I've gathered a few really good beta readers, but I'd like to get more feedback at the story development/outline stage and I haven't found a copy editor and/or proofreader I'm happy with. Fortunately, I have some money at the moment (we were totally broke a year ago), so I could burn a little money on this, but I'd like my fiction writing to make a profit, too.

The first copy editor I hired was too light-handed, meaning she missed a bit more than I thought she should. I'm using her again for this book, so we'll see if she's improved in the last year and a half. The second copy editor is a real pro, but although she used to read and edit a lot of speculative fiction she's moved out of the genre. I mean I think the last feminist sci-fi anthology she was involved in was over 20 years ago. I only took some of her re-wording suggestions, which is to be expected, but the real problem was that she quit 1/3 of the way through. For the next book, I'm considering going no-pro and copy editing it myself using text-to-speech, then getting someone I know to proofread.

What I need most help with is probably story structure. I've read enough theory that maybe on the next go-round I'll get it, but I'd like to workshop my outline. I'm considering doing one of the Holly Lisle courses, but I don't know if that's the right solution.

Right now, I think I'd like to work towards a process that's something like this:

• outline
• feedback on outline
• draft
• revise/clean up
• beta readers and/or professional manuscript evaluation

• revise
• line/copy edit with text to speech 
• format and to proofreader. 

Thoughts? Recommendations? Especially for getting feedback at the outline stage, as I'd like to do one massive outline for the next 3 books in the series which are pretty closely interlinked, one right after the other, in classic trilogy style. (The first two books are basically prequels.)

 

[Suzy]

I'm sorry, but I never work like that. I'm a total pantser and write away until the first draft is finished. Then I do a reverse outline, making a list of all the scenes and that way can get a good idea how the story flows. I often even cut out the scenes on paper and organise them the way I think they should go, like a patchwork quilt. I always spot the plot holes and faults in the arc of the story this way.

Then, when I'm fairly happy with it myself, I send it to my betas, many of whom are terrific at spotting typos. Then a copy editor who is fantastic and always insists on three passes. When she has finished, I proofread myself, using text to speech.

[ameliasmith]

Jan 28, 2015 7:07:25 GMT -5 Suzy said:

I'm sorry, but I never work like that. I'm a total pantser and write away until the first draft is finished. Then I do a reverse outline, making a list of all the scenes and that way can get a good idea how the story flows. I often even cut out the scenes on paper and organise them the way I think they should go, like a patchwork quilt. I always spot the plot holes and faults in the arc of the story this way.    

I've been doing something like that, but it's not working so well for me so I'm going to try outlining first and see what happens. Also, I am not so good at spotting faults in the story arc with this method. I bring my beta readers in a little earlier in the process, more for feedback on story issues than for typo-hunting, because that's where my weak point is.

3 passes from a copy editor is very thorough! I feel that my writing is pretty solid on a sentence level (after revision, of course!), so that's why I'm thinking I should invest more in professional help for other parts of the process. 

But yes, everyone has a different process. I'm just trying to figure out what works best for me.

[Daniel]

Jan 28, 2015 6:58:39 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

What I need most help with is probably story structure. I've read enough theory that maybe on the next go-round I'll get it, but I'd like to workshop my outline. I'm considering doing one of the Holly Lisle courses, but I don't know if that's the right solution.

Right now, I think I'd like to work towards a process that's something like this:

• outline
• feedback on outline
• draft
• revise/clean up
• beta readers and/or professional manuscript evaluation

• revise
• line/copy edit with text to speech 
• format and to proofreader. 

Thoughts? Recommendations? Especially for getting feedback at the outline stage, as I'd like to do one massive outline for the next 3 books in the series which are pretty closely interlinked, one right after the other, in classic trilogy style. (The first two books are basically prequels.)

 

First, I wish you the best of luck. Understanding that your process can always be improved is critical to improving your process. As stupidly obvious as that may sound, it's easy to get into a rut that isn't really working for you, but stick to it because doing so is easier than experimenting with improvements.

I've heard good things about Holly's courses, but I have no personal experience to share on that subject.

As for getting feedback at the outline stage, you might try using the private critique section here at the Pub. I suggest that you offer outlines for the prequels as well, so anyone who wants to help will have context. The other thing I'd suggest is that you put together an overview outline for the series, which might be nothing more than a few bullet points that explain your intended series arc and how it relates to each of the three volumes.

I'm interested in seeing how this works out for you, and I'll try to help. I'm a story structure junky myself, so I can offer perspectives on that front.

[scdaffron]

I don't know if this is helpful, but here's my process. (I'm NOT a pantser...I work from an outline that gets more detailed as I write the book.)

Get an idea
Develop characters
Write up a preliminary outline (with story structure points in there, so I know I've hit them)
Write a little & get stuck
Print out the outline and hash it out with my husband. Scribble many notes
Revise the outline in Scrivener
Write some more until I get stuck (usually because I haven't figured out characters enough)
(optional) Hash out outline one more time with my husband
Get on a roll and finally write the friggin' first draft
Give the first draft to my alpha readers (my sister and my husband)
After I get it back, revise profusely
Give the next draft to beta readers
After I get it back, revise again
Send final text to editor
After I get it back, do layout
Do final proofreading of laid out version.
Do Kindle/EPUB conversion
Proofread that too.

If I didn't have my husband available at the outline phase, I would probably want another writer to talk to, so I can see where you might need/want that. I'm lucky that my husband is a writer too, so he helps me with my books and I help him with his 

[Becca Mills]

Jan 28, 2015 6:58:39 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

Right now, I think I'd like to work towards a process that's something like this:

• outline
• feedback on outline
• draft
• revise/clean up
• beta readers and/or professional manuscript evaluation

• revise
• line/copy edit with text to speech 
• format and to proofreader. 

Thoughts? Recommendations? Especially for getting feedback at the outline stage, as I'd like to do one massive outline for the next 3 books in the series which are pretty closely interlinked, one right after the other, in classic trilogy style. (The first two books are basically prequels.)

This is exactly the process I'm planning to follow with my next book. No, not planning to follow. Going to follow! I've been a pantser up until now, but I find I just can't produce work quickly enough in pantsing mode when I only have small blocks in which to work. I'm hoping a more methodical approach will work better. I'm definitely going to get feedback at the outline stage from at least one beta-reader, probably two.

[ameliasmith]

Ha ha Becca! We should compare notes when we're through the book. I've been working on this series long enough that I can't remember how many revisions I've done.

And to Daniel, yes, I think I will put my outline up for critique. I have somewhat of an outline for the series, about a page for everything except the final book, which I have about a paragraph for. Up until now, I have not been a structure junkie, but I've tried to get into it and I've read an awful lot of story theory books, which you would hope would help, right? I keep thinking that eventually it will all sink in.

Susan, yours arrangement with your husband sounds great. I have a husband but we inhabit near-opposite corners of the nerdiverse (Is that a word? It's a word now.). He's into RPGs and short horror, I do the epic fantasies with an allegorical slant. Where I edge over into action-adventure fantasy I think he might be able to help some. He has helped me with photoshop some, though, and I do all the bookkeeping and scheduling for his business, insofar as it gets done at all. Your proofreading also sounds much more thorough than mine, not to mention the alpha- then beta-readers. I had two rounds of beta reading on the first book in the series (three or four, if you count the ones from pre-2007), but the final one was more like a proofread.

So many revisions. Like Becca, I'm hoping for some efficiency magic from the combination of my years of scattershot experience plus the methodical approach.

[Daniel]

Jan 29, 2015 13:40:53 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

And to Daniel, yes, I think I will put my outline up for critique. I have somewhat of an outline for the series, about a page for everything except the final book, which I have about a paragraph for. Up until now, I have not been a structure junkie, but I've tried to get into it and I've read an awful lot of story theory books, which you would hope would help, right? I keep thinking that eventually it will all sink in.

I did a lot of research on the subject too, but it didn't really sink in until I started adapting the various theories to create my own interpretation. My technical background initially pushed me toward Randy Ingermanson and Larry Brooks, but I've also drawn a lot from James Scott Bell. I don't think there's one "right" way to do this writing thing. There's just the way that works best for you at the moment. I'm still adapting.

[mlhearing]

First question: How much are you paying your copy editor? Good ones aren't cheap.

I still have one ongoing copy-editing job. It's for a trade journal in the air-cago industry. I charge about $15/page for that job. 'Course some of the pieces are written by non-native English speakers, and that ups the price a good bit.

Good copy editors are few and far between.

[Daniel]

Jan 29, 2015 19:33:40 GMT -5 mlhearing said:

Good copy editors are few and far between.

Even if you find a good one, you have to go into the transaction somewhat philosophically. Authors who expect a copy editor to "fix all the problems" are invariably disappointed.

If you hire three different copy editors to go over the same book, you'll find:

1) They'll disagree with each other on "the rules."

2) They'll all suggest changes you don't agree with.

3) They'll all miss things that your readers will catch.

I'm not saying editing is a waste. As far as I'm concerned, the more critical (and professional) eyes on the ms the better. But you have to accept that no book is perfect no matter how much you spend on it. All you can do is hope that your manuscript is better after editing than it was before, and that judgment call is up to you. In the end, a "good" copy editor is the one who suggests changes you agree with the most.

[mlhearing]

Yes, what Daniel said.

[ameliasmith]

I have been using the cheap copy editors. The first was about $300 for a 90,000 word book, but now she's up to $500 per 100,000 words. The other one charged by the hour ($25/hour -- she charges more when she's working for corporations rather than individuals).

I've shied away from the more expensive ones because we were on a very tight budget (well below federal poverty level in a high cost-of-living area) until a few months ago, and so far I haven't had any significant income from my books. I like to think I'll get there, but I'm not there yet! We have a bit more money at the moment but it's all very sporadic with no guarantees of future income. It's just hard to justify investing in a business which will probably never yield significant returns (on average, even if you do everything right, though I keep hoping).

[scdaffron]

Jan 30, 2015 8:55:19 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

It's just hard to justify investing in a business which will probably never yield significant returns (on average, even if you do everything right, though I keep hoping).

I agree with this and it's why I use a "cheap" copyeditor too. I compensate by using alpha and beta readers who catch a lot of stuff before the copyeditor ever sees the book. She charges by the hour, so the cleaner the manuscript is, the less I pay.

I was an editor and still work with editors in my day job. (I try to avoid doing editing anymore myself.) Over the years, I've met some VERY good editors and not so good ones. Although the editor I use for my books is not the greatest copyeditor I've ever met, she finds a lot of things that I miss because it's my own writing. She's good at noticing missing words, comma problems and weird constructions, which by that point is usually all I need.

[mlhearing]

Jan 30, 2015 8:55:19 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

I have been using the cheap copy editors. The first was about $300 for a 90,000 word book, but now she's up to $500 per 100,000 words. The other one charged by the hour ($25/hour -- she charges more when she's working for corporations rather than individuals).

I've shied away from the more expensive ones because we were on a very tight budget (well below federal poverty level in a high cost-of-living area) until a few months ago, and so far I haven't had any significant income from my books. I like to think I'll get there, but I'm not there yet! We have a bit more money at the moment but it's all very sporadic with no guarantees of future income. It's just hard to justify investing in a business which will probably never yield significant returns (on average, even if you do everything right, though I keep hoping).

I understand completely what you're saying. And don't be dismayed: you can find adequate copy editors at those rates--just not the really great ones.

Here's what a lot of people don't realize. The page-per-hour rate for copy editing can be slower than that for the writing itself. For an easy copy edit, I can rock along at 5 to 6 pages per hour. For that trade journal, when the articles are written by Germans, the pace goes down to 1 to 3 pages per hour. Quality copy editing just takes a lot of time--especially since you have to go back and make a couple more passes after the first one. $300-$500 for a novel would be way below minimum wage.

But here's the thing: most people with a decent grasp of the language and usage rules don't need a copy editor--beta readers will usually do the trick. What most of us need (at times, but not always) is substantive editors.

Use beta readers, and trust your gut on the rest.

[Daniel]

Jan 30, 2015 21:52:03 GMT -5 mlhearing said:

What most of us need (at times, but not always) is substantive editors.

And proofreaders! It's important to have another set of eyes (or two) read the final ms and catch the typos, missing words, duplicated words, and other head-slappers. That's what I see lacking in most books, whether they are indie-published or traditionally-published.

[ameliasmith]

Jan 31, 2015 9:35:44 GMT -5 Daniel said:

Jan 30, 2015 21:52:03 GMT -5 mlhearing said:

What most of us need (at times, but not always) is substantive editors.

And proofreaders! It's important to have another set of eyes (or two) read the final ms and catch the typos, missing words, duplicated words, and other head-slappers. That's what I see lacking in most books, whether they are indie-published or traditionally-published.

That's kind of what I'm coming around to. Some of my beta readers are pretty good with story issues, but I'm thinking of shelling out $500-750 for a manuscript report on the next book and/or the outline of the rest of the series, if the editor I want is available or if I can find another one with similar credentials.

I don't think I'm actually capable of proofreading my own work -- I skim too much. 

[Daniel]

Jan 31, 2015 10:48:33 GMT -5 ameliasmith said:

I don't think I'm actually capable of proofreading my own work -- I skim too much. 

I suspect that most people aren't good at proofing their own work. I've already seen the same paragraphs of text a half-dozen times or more by the time a book is ready for proofreading and my brain knows what words to expect next. Skimming is almost impossible to avoid.

The only way I can proof my own work is to read the entire book out loud. It's hard to skim when you do that. It also helps to reformat the text with different margins so the lines break in new places. That will help you spot double-space issues in addition to re-framing the text.