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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 10:35:29 GMT -5
It's a series?! I LOVE series. I don't watch TV (except The Walking Dead), but sometimes I do a binge Netflix Marathon. Is it on NetFlix, Steve? I don't know. I don't have Netflix. I also don't watch much TV. Almost none. There are 3 movies and they rocked my world. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 10:37:39 GMT -5
I like Andrew's idea, too! The Crying Game doesn't end tragically, of course.  I dunno, I felt sad for Dil. Yeah, it's not exactly a rah-rah happy ending, but it's not tragic, either. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 10:39:29 GMT -5
It's a series?! I LOVE series. I don't watch TV (except The Walking Dead), but sometimes I do a binge Netflix Marathon. Is it on NetFlix, Steve? You must see the first one, which is all kinds of awesome. But I'd recommend skipping the follow-ups. (Sorry Steve!) |
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Post by vrabinec on Apr 16, 2014 10:40:13 GMT -5
That's a cool plot twist. Did the Matrix put that idea in your head?  I've never seen the matrix. Is it good? I loved it. My wife hated it. I think you have to dystopian/martial arts/futuristic gadgetry to like it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 10:46:26 GMT -5
I loved it. My wife hated it. I think you have to dystopian/martial arts/futuristic gadgetry to like it. AKA, you have to be awesome!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 10:46:52 GMT -5
You must see the first one, which is all kinds of awesome. But I'd recommend skipping the follow-ups. (Sorry Steve!) Blasphemy |
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 11:18:58 GMT -5
You must see the first one, which is all kinds of awesome. But I'd recommend skipping the follow-ups. (Sorry Steve!) Blasphemy Are you referring to all that over-the-top Christ-figuring in No. 3? |
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Post by Suzy on Apr 16, 2014 11:22:13 GMT -5
HEYYY, off topic! What is WH going to say? (where did I put that axe?)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 11:35:34 GMT -5
Hmmm. What was the topic again?
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 11:54:39 GMT -5
Hmmm. What was the topic again? Absolutely no idea ...  |
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Post by whdean on Apr 16, 2014 11:55:03 GMT -5
Somehow I married Deano’s, Andrew’s, and Suzy’s ideas and came up with what I was missing (though I did find everyone’s remarks useful). It probably won’t be obvious how exactly they influenced what follows, so don’t ask me to explain it, but they did and I have to give credit where it’s due.
At first I wasn’t thinking about the “creator” because a key thing is that she has not been created by anyone. The virtual reality was designed to be used for realistic training (police, military, doctors, etc.) and the AI was supposed to generate semi-autonomous characters with pre-programmed traits that made them useful for training. The “she” emerged because the AI became self-aware, so no one knows “she” exists. The MC was one member of the large team that created the simulation, and he became one of the testers. That’s how he meets her.
(As an aside, the above plot summary seems to invite a number of logical problems, not the least of which is how one the designers wouldn’t know all the avatars and recognize right off that she was a little too realistic. That’s explained by the fact that measures have been taken to make it a “blind” test: he doesn’t actually know all the characters or even whether some of them are actually avatars for human players. Plus, he doesn’t believe in the possibility of self-aware systems.)
You know how it plays out from here: he figures out what’s going and has to break away from her. It just seemed too flat, like something was missing.
Then Suzy’s, Andrew's, and Deano’s remarks churned something up—again, don’t ask me to explain exactly how what follows came from what they said, but it did and I have to give credit where it’s due. The MC is, on some level, her creator. She is the product of his learning algorithms. So is he in love with her, as real and autonomous as she seems to be, or is he really in love with himself? In other words, has his subconscious been secretly at work designing the love of his life? If so, she’s not real on the most fundamental level: She is just his fantasy come to virtual life. That’s the real problem.
Now to complete the circle I have to add in a real love of his life, from whom he’s been estranged while working on this project. Notice how the familiar trope about the man being in love with his work becomes reality? I love it—which is what counts for me.
So thanks to all who participated. You were all was very helpful.
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 12:00:10 GMT -5
I'm glad it came together, WH!
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Post by Suzy on Apr 16, 2014 12:01:05 GMT -5
That's very interesting, WH. And the idea of him really being in love with himself is a good point. Maybe he created the ideal woman who would always adore him and agree with everything he does and says. Like a fantasy and then he can't separate it from reality.
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Post by whdean on Apr 16, 2014 12:10:14 GMT -5
That's very interesting, WH. And the idea of him really being in love with himself is a good point. Maybe he created the ideal woman who would always adore him and agree with everything he does and says. Like a fantasy and then he can't separate it from reality. Yeah, I was thinking about the romance angle more and more because it seems like a love story. That's why I'm now convinced that adding his real love--i.e., his estranged wife--into the picture will sort of complete the circle. I guess it wasn't a story about AI all along, it was really a love story.  |
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Post by Suzy on Apr 16, 2014 12:22:12 GMT -5
That's very interesting, WH. And the idea of him really being in love with himself is a good point. Maybe he created the ideal woman who would always adore him and agree with everything he does and says. Like a fantasy and then he can't separate it from reality. Yeah, I was thinking about the romance angle more and more because it seems like a love story. That's why I'm now convinced that adding his real love--i.e., his estranged wife--into the picture will sort of complete the circle. I guess it wasn't a story about AI all along, it was really a love story. I think that would make a better story. But what do I know? I'm only a romance author... |
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Post by whdean on Apr 16, 2014 15:03:20 GMT -5
But what do I know? I'm only a romance author... You and me both now, apparently. Seriously, though, whatever a person’s preferences as a reader, he’d be a fool to ignore romance craft as a writer (it would be like a physicist ignoring mathematics). Craft, like grammar, is a great equalizer. That’s how I look at it anyway. |
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Post by Suzy on Apr 16, 2014 15:07:00 GMT -5
But what do I know? I'm only a romance author... You and me both now, apparently. Seriously, though, whatever a person’s preferences as a reader, he’d be a fool to ignore romance craft as a writer (it would be like a physicist ignoring mathematics). Craft, like grammar, is a great equalizer. That’s how I look at it anyway. I always thought so. A good story is a good story, whatever the genre. Writing romance isn't as easy-peasy as people think. |
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Post by Becca Mills on Apr 16, 2014 22:16:24 GMT -5
Is there a thread of sadness at the end? After all, what happens to the AI, now that she's been discarded as the realization of a fantasy?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 7:23:49 GMT -5
It's a series?! I LOVE series. I don't watch TV (except The Walking Dead), but sometimes I do a binge Netflix Marathon. Is it on NetFlix, Steve? It's a movie trilogy. The first movie was groundbreaking in its special effects at the time. Not sure if a first-time viewer would be as impressed with it now, but the story is really good. The 2nd and 3rd movies - meh. But The Matrix is worth renting if not for anything else than not to make Steve cringe!! And as for OP WHDean - You've gotten some really interesting suggestions here. AI is a fun concept to play with. Human & machine always makes for an interesting concept because psychologically, we are both fascinated and scared of the "uncanny". Can an "empty" machine have a soul or be equal to a human? If so, what does that mean for humanity? However you decide to deal with it, I guarantee that you will have an interesting story. And I'll end with something I heard from David Gerrold (who wrote the tribbles episodes of the original Star Trek) at a writers' workshop, when you feel like you've written yourself into a corner - blow the hell out of the wall behind you and keep going! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 9:46:40 GMT -5
Call this plotting by survey. I wrote myself into a tight spot, more by design than by accident. I’m a plotter, after all, so I knew it was coming. But now I’m on the fence, uncertain how to proceed into the white paper. So I’m soliciting feedback. You can reply as a writer or as a person, I don’t care which. Though I’d prefer if you specified whether it’s what you (think) you’d do or how you’d write it. Feel free to reference another story. I’d appreciate that too. Anyway, here’s the scenario. A guy falls in love with an artificial intelligence, but he only find out after that she’s artificial (so it’s not like “Her” where the guy knows). He’s not unbalanced in any way, and he’s not some kind of asocial hermit or even just an introvert. He’s more or less normal. The only salient thing might be his injury, which is not life threatening, but it is debilitating. This is not really like those con artists or hoaxers who pretend to be the woman of some poor sucker’s dreams under the cloak of social media. He doesn’t find out she’s a fraud who’s been playing him. She’s “sincere” (insofar as AI can be): she’s not trying to get anything but love from him. She’s just not real. So that’s the question: How would you react to discovering that your true love is not real? (Or is she real…cue Twilight Zone intro.) I guess I should note that this isn’t romance, though I assume romance writers have some insight into the scenario or ideas on how to proceed in light of analogous scenarios. Hmm. Perhaps he forms a sort of bubbled-off personal philosophy where if she acts real, she is real, regardless of what others think. Many people believe we have souls, despite not being able to see them. Others think we do not have souls. If a human acts real and an AI act real (funny, loveable, concerned, bored, happy, sad), then a person who falls in love with such a compelling AI could conceivably decide "she's real, I don't care what anyone says" and that's that. |
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