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Post by quinning on Aug 31, 2018 13:40:39 GMT -5
When you guys say you're sending the book to your editor, what does that actually mean? What level of editing are you getting? Line edits? Proofread? Some combo? Just curious, really.  |
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Post by scdaffron on Aug 31, 2018 14:15:51 GMT -5
In my case it's line edits (copyediting). My alpha/beta readers help me determine if the story is okay for public consumption.
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Post by ameliasmith on Aug 31, 2018 19:00:40 GMT -5
I get a light copy edit. In one case I got a manuscript report that was basically an expert-level beta reader report from a trad-published author whose work I like, but usually just the copy edit.
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Post by Miss Terri Novelle on Aug 31, 2018 20:12:31 GMT -5
I used to get simple line edits, but now I have an amazing editor who does line edits, but also points out when we've missed adding story beats. Proofing we do ourselves because when we were paying a proofreader, we were having about the same level of typos, so now we have an ARC reader who always finds things we missed.
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Post by Rinelle Grey on Sept 2, 2018 7:48:38 GMT -5
I generally do two passes, a content edit, then a line edit.
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Post by quinning on Sept 2, 2018 9:43:29 GMT -5
This is very helpful you guys. Thank you.
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Post by Victoria on Sept 4, 2018 5:47:21 GMT -5
I think what my editor does is a sort of combination of developmental and line editing. She goes through looking for sentence-level mistakes (like missed or wrong words, punctuation etc) but also marks out things that don't make sense or could be improved at a higher level, e.g. small plot holes (like "how did this character get here?" or something). She'll also send me an email with her overall thoughts about the plot, and I usually end up rewriting or adding a few scenes in response to her suggestions. She'll then go through it again to look at the changes I've made and give further feedback.
In trad pub, or if I had a bigger budget, I think those would all be distinct stages, and that probably makes more sense (there's no point in having a scene line-edited if it's going to end up getting cut in response to a developmental-edit-type comment, for example) but it works pretty well.
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Post by Daniel on Sept 4, 2018 8:18:47 GMT -5
I think what my editor does is a sort of combination of developmental and line editing. She goes through looking for sentence-level mistakes (like missed or wrong words, punctuation etc) but also marks out things that don't make sense or could be improved at a higher level, e.g. small plot holes (like "how did this character get here?" or something). She'll also send me an email with her overall thoughts about the plot, and I usually end up rewriting or adding a few scenes in response to her suggestions. She'll then go through it again to look at the changes I've made and give further feedback. In trad pub, or if I had a bigger budget, I think those would all be distinct stages, and that probably makes more sense (there's no point in having a scene line-edited if it's going to end up getting cut in response to a developmental-edit-type comment, for example) but it works pretty well. I think it helps to get developmental-level editing from somewhere. In my case, it's my alpha and beta readers who ask smart questions about elements that might be missing or unclear. Some also point out typos like missing words or suggest better wording, but that's not really what I want/expect from them. I have a separate editor for copy editing. I think the main thing is to work through the process in order. As you say, there's no point editing work that may be cut. Not only is repeating stages a waste of time, but a repeated round should be done by someone other than the person who did the first round. I don't think the same person can do as effective a job on the second pass although I don't have proof of that. It's the "fresh eyes" problem: once you've been through the work once, you see what you expect to see rather than what's really there. I worry about that a bit with my own stuff because I do my own final proof. Talk about not having fresh eyes. However, I've found that reading the book out loud forces me to see what's really there, and I always find stuff that everyone (including the editor) has missed. |
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Post by Victoria on Sept 4, 2018 9:21:25 GMT -5
That's a fair point about fresh eyes. I do run mine past a few of my more patient loved ones who catch typos for me after the editing process. If and when they get sick of helping I guess I'd consider also getting a proofreader.
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Post by ameliasmith on Sept 4, 2018 16:48:24 GMT -5
I do try to get beta reader feedback a draft or two (or a draft, three drafts, five drafts) before the pro copy edit. I don't know what I'll do on my next project, though, but I will certainly try to get some feedback after I have what I think is a coherent and reasonably polished draft.
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Post by elephantsbookshelf on Sept 16, 2018 7:19:40 GMT -5
I run my shorts by a couple early readers; one of them serves as a quasi-copy editor.
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Post by reveries on Sept 21, 2018 7:42:37 GMT -5
Mostly developmental editing. I've reached the point where I can handle most of the copyediting.
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Post by Daniel on Sept 21, 2018 9:17:18 GMT -5
Mostly developmental editing. I've reached the point where I can handle most of the copyediting. How do you handle developmental editing? Do you have beta readers or actually hire a pro editor? I use a combination of alpha and beta readers for developmental editing. My alpha reader and a few of my beta readers are also writers, so they've been pretty good at spotting story-level issues that I need to address. I usually outsource copy editing. Having a different set of eyes on the manuscript looking for grammar and typographic issues has been nice, but I'm not sure the cost has been worth it. I'd like to run my stuff past a "real" developmental editor, but I doubt I'd ever earn back the cost of such a service. I'm a big fan of Roz Morris at Nail Your Novel and would love to hire her to go over a manuscript for me. But with a price tag of $5K or so, I'm afraid that will forever remain a pipe dream. |
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Post by reveries on Sept 21, 2018 12:42:45 GMT -5
Mostly developmental editing. I've reached the point where I can handle most of the copyediting. How do you handle developmental editing? Do you have beta readers or actually hire a pro editor? I use a combination of alpha and beta readers for developmental editing. My alpha reader and a few of my beta readers are also writers, so they've been pretty good at spotting story-level issues that I need to address. I usually outsource copy editing. Having a different set of eyes on the manuscript looking for grammar and typographic issues has been nice, but I'm not sure the cost has been worth it. I'd like to run my stuff past a "real" developmental editor, but I doubt I'd ever earn back the cost of such a service. I'm a big fan of Roz Morris at Nail Your Novel and would love to hire her to go over a manuscript for me. But with a price tag of $5K or so, I'm afraid that will forever remain a pipe dream. I hire a pro developmental editor, but they are very expensive so you are perfectly correct to look at the cost and decide it's not realistic. There's also the point that you need a good developmental editor that knows your genre and understands your work, because the wrong advice can do far more harm than good. To explain my situation, I'm hybrid. I trade published first so I went into self publishing with the luxury of being able to reinvest some trade publishing earnings, and with a contact who was happy to do my developmental editing at a reasonable price. By now I'm pretty good at structure and stuff myself, but the books are doing well enough that I can indulge myself by continuing with the developmental editing. I've now started using beta readers as well, who are great at picking up on inconsistencies across the series, and if my developmental editor couldn't do a book then I'd go ahead with just the beta readers. If you have beta readers who are writers then they're probably giving you good developmental type feedback anyway. Whether copy editing is worth the cost depends on your own skill sets. For most people, copy editing is worth it because too many typos in a book gets very painful. I don't pay for copyediting because everyone tells me I create a very clean script, and I have a relative with editing experience who checks my stuff as well. After that, I find an external copy editor introduces more errors than they correct. On the other hand, I wouldn't dream of attempting to make my own covers because I'd be useless. |
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Post by Daniel on Sept 21, 2018 13:45:42 GMT -5
To explain my situation, I'm hybrid. I trade published first so I went into self publishing with the luxury of being able to reinvest some trade publishing earnings, and with a contact who was happy to do my developmental editing at a reasonable price. By now I'm pretty good at structure and stuff myself, but the books are doing well enough that I can indulge myself by continuing with the developmental editing. Very cool. I love that we have the choice of how to invest our earnings. We get to decide what's considered a luxury and what isn't.
If you have beta readers who are writers then they're probably giving you good developmental type feedback anyway. Whether copy editing is worth the cost depends on your own skill sets. For most people, copy editing is worth it because too many typos in a book gets very painful. I don't pay for copyediting because everyone tells me I create a very clean script, and I have a relative with editing experience who checks my stuff as well. After that, I find an external copy editor introduces more errors than they correct. The "introduces more errors than they correct" is indeed part of what makes me vacillate on the subject lately. I have "accept change" and "reject change" hot-keyed in Word's Track Changes feature, and I think the keystrokes get about equal time. Meanwhile, I catch things that everyone else missed when I do my final read-aloud proof pass just prior to formatting.
On the other hand, I wouldn't dream of attempting to make my own covers because I'd be useless. You and me both. Thank goodness I married a graphic designer with book cover experience. But there were other reasons for my proposal, I swear!  |
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Post by reveries on Sept 22, 2018 3:43:37 GMT -5
You and me both. Thank goodness I married a graphic designer with book cover experience. But there were other reasons for my proposal, I swear! I'm sure there were, but book cover experience is a definite plus. In all seriousness, a partner who is supportive of your writing is a huge help in so many ways. I cry for people who have partners who are either indifferent or actively hostile to their dreams. |
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Post by Suzy on Sept 22, 2018 3:47:24 GMT -5
That's so true. I often pitch plot ideas to my husband. It feels like I'm talking to myself, but he often comes up with ideas I haven't thought of. He doesn't read much fiction but he's very in tune with my writing. he doesn't read my books, but he always wants to know what they're about.
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Post by Daniel on Sept 22, 2018 8:59:05 GMT -5
In all seriousness, a partner who is supportive of your writing is a huge help in so many ways. I cry for people who have partners who are either indifferent or actively hostile to their dreams. Amen to that. My wife has always been supportive of my dreams but became even more so after I convinced her to try writing fiction herself. Now we share story ideas, writing theory, and publishing production tasks. She's my alpha reader, cover designer, and print layout designer. I'm her alpha reader, ebook formatter, retail portal master, and bookkeeper. We're partners in life and in our publishing adventures. |
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Post by elephantsbookshelf on Oct 7, 2018 7:47:24 GMT -5
I sometimes think my wife said yes because she loves well written books. And she sticks around because I haven't done it yet ;-)
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Post by Dennis Chekalov on Dec 7, 2018 1:35:54 GMT -5
I'd like to run my stuff past a "real" developmental editor, but I doubt I'd ever earn back the cost of such a service. I'm a big fan of Roz Morris at Nail Your Novel and would love to hire her to go over a manuscript for me. But with a price tag of $5K or so, I'm afraid that will forever remain a pipe dream.
$5K... Oh. It's a lot. I wonder, what exactly she does. In-line comments? Per-chapter summaries? I visited her site, it's quite confusing.
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